tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post221114568339472581..comments2024-03-28T07:36:19.697+00:00Comments on Excuse Me Whilst I Step Outside: Red Meat for the Tunbridge Wells Conservative Club Lounge BarCharlieMcMenaminhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00942021756417667913noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-18863124934422090032010-08-06T12:15:30.972+01:002010-08-06T12:15:30.972+01:00I'd also argue that as they say if you want pe...I'd also argue that as they say if you want peace prepare for War. I can envisage a situation, as Marx did, that after a period of developing Co-op production, Co-op forms developing within Communities, of workers becoming more confident and assertive etc. that the sheer weight of the class could become decisive, and the bosses could be just bought out, by a Workers State. At the same timewBoffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-87091990779086548022010-08-06T12:04:01.987+01:002010-08-06T12:04:01.987+01:00Charlie,
On working with the State, I don't t...Charlie,<br /><br />On working with the State, I don't think there is a real difference between us, at that level. I recognise its existence, and, thereofre the need to work with it, just as a Shop Steward also has to work with management sometimes. If I'm mugged, I'd have to work with the Police. I also recognise the difference between workers "In The State", and the Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-50523410917141283542010-08-05T22:01:20.256+01:002010-08-05T22:01:20.256+01:00Charlie,
I'll reply to your comments tomorrow...Charlie,<br /><br />I'll reply to your comments tomorrow. For now, can I point you and your readers to this account of the Conference of Worker Co-ops taking place in California at the moment, and in particular the link-up between the United Steel Workers Union and the Mondragon Co-ops to develop Co-ops and Union organisation across the US and Canada.<br /><br /><a href="http://Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-91790256094719389232010-08-05T14:39:10.497+01:002010-08-05T14:39:10.497+01:00Boffy,
OK, so we're in agreement that a moveme...Boffy,<br />OK, so we're in agreement that a movement has to be built, not assume to exist. I think that means sometimes working with, not always against, the state, in something of a creative tension. <br /><br />On tax - I do think there is a large scope for raising monies. But I'm no tax expert. I think workers control of HMRC is unlikely to make any difference on this front: it's CharlieMcMenaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00942021756417667913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-60224176713219331292010-08-05T14:06:13.089+01:002010-08-05T14:06:13.089+01:00On the deficit. Obviously, in a sense it does mat...On the deficit. Obviously, in a sense it does matter, but both the Tory and new labour proposals for cuts at the present time, make no sense to me. As for Tax, its not like Greece where nobody has been paying tax. Its unlikely that short of workers control of HMRC any significant amount of extra tax will be collected - less if the economy tanks.<br /><br />On the City of London, attacking the Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-42498572200903927912010-08-05T13:59:25.028+01:002010-08-05T13:59:25.028+01:00Charlie,
No I don't assume it already exists,...Charlie,<br /><br />No I don't assume it already exists, but I believe that if it is to exist it has to be built in the context of a struggle against State/private Capital. I don't believe it will develop spontaneously, precisely because it is not immediately apparent that collective, co-operative organisation provides the solution - I don't believe that is true for Trades Unions Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-81402514256902614402010-08-05T11:24:45.496+01:002010-08-05T11:24:45.496+01:00James,
I certainly agree that the Tories have a ge...James,<br />I certainly agree that the Tories have a general strategic orientation of 'not letting this crisis go to waste' and are using the chronic fiscal problems of the state as cover for some long cherished re-engineering of polity and economy that they would have wanted to carry out anyway. It's just that the deficit gives them an excuse for carrying out their restructuring CharlieMcMenaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00942021756417667913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-1953810915686492952010-08-05T02:35:25.187+01:002010-08-05T02:35:25.187+01:00Charlie - what was perhaps more revealing in Camer...Charlie - what was perhaps more revealing in Cameron's latest "Direct" was when he was asked about what would happen to cut services when the Age of Austerity ends. A woman asked sincerely if he would then restore spending - the gist of what he said was "no, the Big Society stays".<br /><br />Ah, Thatcherism with a human face!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11443724356434212172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-77973989100164362672010-08-04T20:33:45.678+01:002010-08-04T20:33:45.678+01:00Boffy,
Hmm. Perhaps. But I think you assume what ...Boffy,<br /><br />Hmm. Perhaps. But I think you <b>assume</b> what has to be created/demonstrated: that, I think you assume that there is already an 'us' which self identifies in opposition to what you describe as 'state capitalist or private capitalist'. <br /><br />My feeling is that the traditional Labour movement is very largely a hollow shell and very few ordinary people CharlieMcMenaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00942021756417667913noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3225795457407230638.post-21569458523134212902010-08-04T13:56:37.112+01:002010-08-04T13:56:37.112+01:00Charlie,
I think its necessary to understand the ...Charlie,<br /><br />I think its necessary to understand the difference between the Political/governmental Power, and the State Power. Marxists (though not Marx)have tended to conflate the two. The Liberal-Tory economic policies are contrary to the interests of Capital, and already the State Power is trying to defend the interests of Capital against them. But, outside a coup (which ain't Boffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08157650969929097569noreply@blogger.com